|
-:- Starting logfile IrcLog IRC log started Mon Jun 18 03:38:58 2001 -:- Value of LOG set to ON IRC log ended Mon Jun 18 03:39:15 2001 -:- Starting logfile IrcLog IRC log started Mon Jun 18 13:25:57 2001 -:- Value of LOG set to ON [01:26pm] <tvon> how are you doing? [01:26pm] <Vinz_gr> just back from work..... under heavy rain.... and you ? [01:27pm] <tvon> mmm...woke up a few hours ago...and hungry...and its hot and humid here [01:27pm] <Vinz_gr> Where are you ? [01:27pm] <tvon> College Park, Maryland USA [01:27pm] <tvon> right outside of Washington D.C. [01:28pm] <tvon> a few miles outside [01:28pm] <Vinz_gr> I see......well, i'm on the other side of the Atlantic [01:28pm] <tvon> yeah, France right? [01:30pm] <Vinz_gr> Correct.... middle of France....600Km from Paris [01:30pm] <tvon> ah #smdp Vinz_gr [0;36mH Vinz_gr[1;31m@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr (KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith' by Szymon Stefanek) #smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon) #smdp fkr [0;36mG fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops) [01:31pm] <tvon> listen, I am going to run out to get something to eat.... -:- Vinz_gr [1;30m[Vinz_gr@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr[1;30m] has left #smdp [1;30m[KVIrc: a breath of fresh net...[1;30m] [01:32pm] <tvon> I think ....... #smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon) #smdp fkr [0;36mG fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops) [01:32pm] <tvon> vinz? [01:32pm] <tvon> heh -:- Vinz_gr [1;30m[[0;36mVinz_gr@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr[1;30m] has joined #smdp [01:32pm] <tvon> hey again [01:32pm] <Vinz_gr> Pfffff..... USB ADSL modem under linux is painful at times..... [01:33pm] <tvon> heh, lame [01:33pm] <tvon> but listen, I am goign to run out for a few minutes... [01:33pm] <Vinz_gr> no problem [01:33pm] <tvon> I think people should starting showing up in about an hour [01:33pm] <Vinz_gr> I'l have a quick bite. [01:33pm] <tvon> so Ill talk to you when I get back... [01:33pm] <tvon> cool [01:33pm] <tvon> :-) [01:33pm] <tvon> cya -:- BitchX: Now logging messages to: /home/tvon/.BitchX/BitchX.away [01:33pm]*tvon is away: (Im getting food) [BX-MsgLog On] -:- We'll miss you -:- SignOff Vinz_gr: #smdp [1;30m(KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith'[1;30m) [01:35pm] <fkr> good evening -:- Vinz_gr [1;30m[[0;36mVinz_gr@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr[1;30m] has joined #smdp [01:35pm] <fkr> hi vinz. [01:36pm] <fkr> s/z/ce/ -:- hmlr [1;30m[[0;36mhal@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com[1;30m] has joined #smdp [01:37pm] <fkr> hi hans [01:38pm] <hmlr> hi [01:38pm] <fkr> how's everyone? [01:38pm] <hmlr> fine, you? [01:39pm] <fkr> pretty fine. [01:39pm] <hmlr> the meeting is at 8 GMT, still? [01:40pm] <fkr> ack. [01:40pm] <fkr> [19:38:49] fkr@mad ~ $ date [01:40pm] <fkr> Mon Jun 18 19:38:51 CEST 2001 [01:40pm] <hmlr> same time as me [01:41pm] <fkr> ack. I'm in germany too ;) [01:41pm] <hmlr> so two more hours to go... [01:45pm] <Vinz_gr> hello everyone ! [01:46pm] <hmlr> Hi [01:47pm] <fkr> vince....nice to see you :) [01:48pm] <Vinz_gr> Well, same for me ! I had to find a decent IRC client...... -:- SignOff hmlr: #smdp [1;30m(Leaving[1;30m) -:- hmlr [1;30m[[0;36mhal@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com[1;30m] has joined #smdp [01:50pm] <fkr> well....epic4 works fine. [01:50pm]*fkr is still confused with GMT....is this one hour behind german-timezone? [01:51pm] <Vinz_gr> Kvirc is a bit flashy but quite usable. I wish I had as many problems with my ADSL connection as I have with kvirc :( [01:52pm] <Vinz_gr> GMT is one hour before europe timezone..... [01:52pm] <tvon> hey guys -:- Does this mean you're really back? [01:52pm] <hmlr> GMT +1 time zone germany, +1 DST [01:52pm] <fkr> so, basically...we meet in 70 minutes [01:52pm] <fkr> hehe [01:52pm] <fkr> hi tom [01:52pm]*tvon nods [01:52pm] <tvon> hey Felix [01:52pm] <hmlr> Hi tom [01:53pm] <tvon> last night? yeah #smdp hmlr [0;36mH hal[1;31m@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com (Hans Lohmander) #smdp Vinz_gr [0;36mH Vinz_gr[1;31m@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr (KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith' by Szymon Stefanek) #smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon) #smdp fkr [0;36mH fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops) [01:53pm] <tvon> hey Hans [01:57pm] <tvon> I have some things to take care of before the meeting gets under way... [01:57pm] <tvon> so, Ill be off and on for the next 30 mins or so [01:57pm] <tvon> (fyi and all) [01:57pm] <fkr> cu for the meeting I say :) -:- hal [1;30m[[0;36mhal@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com[1;30m] has joined #smdp -:- SignOff hal: #smdp [1;30m(ircII EPIC4-0.9.7 (RPM) -- Accept no limitations[1;30m) [02:37pm]*Vinz_gr is AWAY at 22:37:42 : Yum ! -:- Vinz_gr is now known as [0;36mVinz_Yum [02:48pm] <tvon> ello? IRC log ended Mon Jun 18 14:50:50 2001 -:- Starting logfile IrcLog IRC log started Mon Jun 18 14:52:30 2001 -:- Value of LOG set to ON [02:52pm] <tvon> lunch? I thought it was 9pm there? [02:53pm] <Vinz_Yum> So ? :) [02:53pm] <tvon> heh, lunch is a noon thing I though [02:53pm] <tvon> guess things are different all over eh? [02:54pm] <tvon> s/though/thought [02:54pm] <Vinz_Yum> Well, diner if you like ;) [02:54pm] <tvon> ah, ok [02:54pm] <tvon> :-) [02:55pm] <tvon> afk a few [03:01pm] <Vinz_Yum> Here I'm ! [03:03pm]*Vinz_Yum is AWAY at 23:03:41 : eat -:- Vinz_Yum is now known as [0;36mVinz_Miam -:- Vinz_Miam is now known as [0;36mVinz_Yum [03:03pm]*Vinz_Yum is back after 0 d 0 h 0 m 3 s [03:04pm] <Vinz_Yum> So, what is the agenda ? [03:04pm] <tvon> re [03:04pm] <tvon> ahh...hmm...the agenda [03:05pm] <Vinz_Yum> Shouldn't have asked :) [03:05pm] <tvon> the abstraction of the SMDP schema.... [03:05pm] <tvon> :-) [03:05pm] <fkr> ok. [03:05pm] <fkr> I'm here [03:05pm] <tvon> how to deal with user prefrences..... [03:05pm] <tvon> and....whatever else people want to talk about [03:05pm] <tvon> heya Felix -:- BitchX: Unknown command: LOG [0;32m...........................LOG ON [0;32m...........................LOG ON [03:05pm] <fkr> I will need to drop off in a few minutes for a talk to a customer of mine....but I got some time :) [03:05pm] <tvon> np #smdp hmlr [0;36mH hal[1;31m@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com (Hans Lohmander) #smdp Vinz_Yum [0;36mH Vinz_gr[1;31m@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr (KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith' by Szymon Stefanek) #smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon) #smdp fkr [0;36mH fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops) [03:06pm] <fkr> user preferences? [03:06pm] <tvon> Hans, you here? [03:06pm] <fkr> as in what? [03:06pm] <hmlr> yepp [03:06pm] <hmlr> hi all [03:06pm] <tvon> yeah, user specific info on how often a song is skipped or selected for example [03:06pm] <Vinz_Yum> hi ! [03:06pm] <tvon> or which genre a user preferres [03:07pm] <tvon> er, you know...that kinda stuff [1;34m<fkr[1;34m> tvon, that does not belong to the core imho. [03:07pm] <tvon> I agree [03:07pm] <fkr> and it can be seen as a whole separate part imho [03:07pm] <tvon> but think we should have it [03:07pm] <tvon> nod [03:08pm] <fkr> yeah, but there is this whole new schema that popped up [03:08pm] <Vinz_Yum> Hum. General question: are we trying to do everything we can think of in one release, or shall we have a more progressive roadmap ? [03:08pm] <tvon> ah yes, that [03:08pm] <fkr> which is a bit of a higher priority that user preferences [03:08pm] <tvon> nod [03:08pm] <fkr> vince, imho progressive [03:08pm] <Vinz_Yum> nod [03:08pm] <fkr> which is the reason why I would want to skip this user prefrences part. [03:08pm] <Vinz_Yum> nod [03:08pm] <tvon> agreed on the roadmap [03:08pm] <tvon> ok [03:08pm] <Vinz_Yum> We should try to stick to basic features [03:09pm] <tvon> about the new schema.... [03:09pm] <Vinz_Yum> I don't feel like coding a 1million line API :) [03:09pm] <Vinz_Yum> ...for the moment [03:09pm] <Vinz_Yum> :) [03:09pm] <tvon> Hans has alot of db design experience and I asked him to do a draft based on a previous discussion we had [03:09pm] <fkr> vince, definitly nor for the now :) [03:09pm] <tvon> I prob should not have sent it to the list in retrospect [03:09pm] <tvon> but, for the record, we are not going to trash our current schema [03:09pm] <tvon> we might abstract it some more, but we wont start over with a new one [03:10pm] <fkr> so *what* should be more abstracted on the current schema being in the CVS? [03:10pm] <tvon> hold on, lemme bring it up on my box [03:11pm] <tvon> (the thing is bigger than my screen....yeesh) [03:12pm] <fkr> hans, have you looked through the mailing-list-archieve to see, what exactly we want to do? [03:12pm] <hmlr> no [03:12pm] <fkr> ok. [03:12pm] <hmlr> just the questions to you [03:12pm] <fkr> then I do understand, why the schema is so different. [03:12pm] <tvon> ok, abstracting our schema... [03:13pm] <tvon> in song and file table, there is info that can be generalized...like the bitrate and frequency for example [03:13pm] <tvon> could be in a seperate, more generic table [03:13pm] <tvon> and the layer [03:13pm] <fkr> didn't we say that it is going to be moved to the 'file'-table? [03:13pm] <tvon> since ogg has no layers [03:13pm] <tvon> in the file table I mean [03:14pm] <tvon> sorry [03:14pm] <tvon> like a properties table with "property, value, id" or something [03:15pm] <tvon> the amount of abstraction depends on one main thing though [03:15pm] <tvon> what range of information do we want to allow the SMDP to hold? [03:15pm] <tvon> just ogg/mp3 files? wav files? midi files? other music related items? [03:15pm] <fkr> we agreed on the list on .mp3/.ogg [03:16pm] <tvon> we did? [03:16pm] <tvon> hmm [03:16pm] <fkr> midi and wave can both be stored in the same tables, just with lesser information. [03:16pm] <tvon> I remember brief discussion in the forums early on.... [03:16pm] <fkr> for midi and wave we can always have support later on. with no problem. [03:16pm] <fkr> with no backwards-compat. problem #smdp hmlr [0;36mH hal[1;31m@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com (Hans Lohmander) #smdp Vinz_Yum [0;36mH Vinz_gr[1;31m@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr (KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith' by Szymon Stefanek) #smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon) #smdp fkr [0;36mH fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops) [03:17pm] <hmlr> question: shall it be done so that will only be possible to hold just that? [03:17pm] <fkr> if we try to store *every* thing on the first run, will be sitting on the schema in a year. [03:17pm] <fkr> (imho) [03:17pm] <tvon> heh [03:17pm] <tvon> you have a point there [03:17pm] <hmlr> Beg to differ :-) [03:17pm] <tvon> vinz? [03:18pm] <fkr> hmlr, what do you mean? [03:19pm] <Vinz_Yum> I'm having a look at the schema..... I see the basic features I need.... even too much :) [03:19pm] <fkr> vince, do you have the latest schema? [03:20pm] <fkr> *argh* [03:20pm] <hmlr> well, by not restrict to specifics in the table design you develop new methods to hanlde new occurencies and new media [03:20pm] <tvon> http://www.etria.org/~tvon/core-and-optional-set.png [03:20pm] <tvon> is the latest png [03:20pm] <fkr> damn customer calling [03:20pm] <Vinz_Yum> dunno.... v1.1 ? [03:20pm] <fkr> go guys, discuss...I'll jump in later or comment on smdp-devel@ [03:20pm] <tvon> aight Felix [03:21pm] <tvon> hmlr, that is my main point of agreement with you [03:21pm] <tvon> now, one argument is that we could change the schema if some new format pops up.... [03:21pm] <fkr> *geeez* just wanted to tell me, that he will be calling again in ten minutes *argh* [03:21pm] <tvon> but that risks making the new schema non-backwards compatable [03:22pm] <hmlr> Its about coding aginst columns or against occurencies, the coding is the same, but the impact on the change is greater using columns imho [03:22pm] <fkr> well...than it's our fsck'ing job not to make it incompatible. [03:22pm] <tvon> fkr, which is what Im trying to do here [03:22pm] <tvon> Im trying to avoid future hacks [03:23pm] <fkr> well...software is work-in-progress. [03:23pm] <fkr> it always is. [03:23pm] <tvon> ack [03:23pm] <fkr> that's the way this business works. [03:23pm] <tvon> but if we can prevent something by making a more generalized design I dont think it would hurt anything [03:24pm] <tvon> lke our current taginfo table....it looks good to me, it allows for any kind of new tag to be entered into it... [03:24pm] <fkr> jeah, but the amount of 'generalization' is important [03:24pm] <Vinz_Yum> Yep, but needs alot of work !!!! [03:24pm] <tvon> I think the file table should have a fileinfo table that is similar to the taginfo [1;34m<fkr[1;34m> tvon, ok. that sounds good. [03:24pm] <tvon> that is the kind of thing Im talkin aobut.. [03:25pm] <tvon> but just od that for the song table and the artist table.... [03:25pm] <tvon> and whatever else... [03:25pm] <tvon> (I havent looked at them specifically, but the idea is the same) [03:25pm] <fkr> what for? [03:26pm] <fkr> I understand it, when it comes to the files and tags. [03:26pm] <tvon> well, we might want to associate something else with the album other than what it is currently connected to... [03:26pm] <fkr> what besides artist and song? [03:26pm] <fkr> and genre [03:26pm] <tvon> it curently has id, genreid, aritstid, name and track list (which we forgot to remove btw :-) [03:26pm] <tvon> my point is, I dont know.... [03:26pm] <tvon> but something will come up in the future... [03:26pm] <tvon> imho [03:27pm] <hmlr> hey, hey [03:27pm] <fkr> yeah, but nobody will be using mp3 in three years either anymore. [03:27pm] <tvon> and allowing people to make up thier own information would help [03:27pm] <Vinz_Yum> Couldn't the relation help to do almost anything possible ? [03:27pm] <fkr> vince, it can. [03:27pm] <tvon> I think so [03:27pm] <fkr> vince, that's the reason why I tossed this up. [03:27pm] <fkr> *argh* phone again. [03:27pm] <tvon> :-) [03:27pm] <tvon> Hans, you still with us? [03:28pm] <hmlr> still here [03:28pm] <tvon> ok, here is a summary of my opinion on this:: [03:29pm] <tvon> hm... [03:29pm] <tvon> if we abstract the format specific information... [03:29pm] <tvon> we can still hold all the info we have thought of [03:29pm] <tvon> and more information if it comes up [03:29pm] <tvon> without making things incompatable with future upgrades....and [03:30pm] <tvon> while allowing other formats to be stored without alot of empty feilds in a (for example) db of 10.000 midi tracks [03:30pm] <tvon> and I dont entirely see why not to do this, other than the (reasonably good) arguemtn that "our brains are already fried, we dont need this right now" [03:30pm] <tvon> :-) [03:31pm]*tvon thinks there has been more timezone confusion becuase alot more people told me they would be here :-) [03:32pm] <Vinz_Yum> If we go more generic we would go for a schema like the one hans proposed. [03:32pm] <hmlr> GMT is now 19:32 [03:32pm] <tvon> yeah, thats the general idea [03:32pm] <tvon> 19"32? [03:32pm] <tvon> hmm [03:32pm] <tvon> I said 8 right? [03:32pm] <tvon> damn [03:33pm] <tvon> thought it was 8:32 gmt right now [03:33pm] <Vinz_Yum> For me, this would need deep explanations, as I'm not a DBA. I understand quickly but I need to be explained a long time :( [03:33pm] <tvon> so peeps should be here in 30 mins... [03:33pm] <tvon> IMHO, if we abstract out our current schema a little, we will get something close to what hans has... [03:33pm] <hmlr> will be away for 2 min... [03:33pm] <Vinz_Yum> Be leaving in .... 10 mins. Xav not here (apologies) [03:33pm] <tvon> nod [03:35pm] <hmlr> back again [03:35pm] <tvon> nod [03:35pm] <hmlr> The time confusion comes from DST i think [03:36pm] <tvon> dst? [03:36pm] <tvon> oh, yeah [03:36pm] <tvon> I hate that crap [03:36pm] <hmlr> Daylight Saving Time [03:36pm] <tvon> :-) [03:36pm] <tvon> there is none in europe is there? [03:36pm]*tvon shrugs [03:37pm] <hmlr> yes we have [03:37pm] <hmlr> so +1 +1 = 2! ;-) [03:37pm] <tvon> Ill never understand it all [03:37pm] <Vinz_Yum> IMHO, if you remove some unneccesary fields ( year,enhanced,)from the song table and put them somewhere else, you have something quite generic. You link records from other table and that's it ! [03:37pm] <tvon> vinz, yes, that is what I am thinking [03:37pm] <Vinz_Yum> I'm in Europe too ! [03:38pm] <tvon> Im the only Yank here right now [03:38pm] <Vinz_Yum> To evolve, just add tables and here you are ! [03:38pm] <tvon> that would be a benifit, yes [03:39pm] <Vinz_Yum> We should focus on MP3, then add ogg info, then xyz info,...... [03:39pm] <tvon> yeah, I agree [03:39pm] <tvon> well, I think of it this way [03:39pm] <Vinz_Yum> That's release 1,2,3,...... [03:39pm] <tvon> well...hmm [03:39pm] <tvon> heh [03:40pm] <Vinz_Yum> hum...almost :) [03:40pm] <tvon> I would like it if the SMDP was viewed as a good-for-everything music database system... [03:40pm] <hmlr> aggree, regarding the code, but not the datamodel [03:40pm] <tvon> so, for example, 30,000 wav clips from movies could be held without a ton of empty fields in the db [03:40pm] <Vinz_Yum> fine. [03:41pm] <tvon> Felix I think wants to keep things mp3/ogg focused [03:41pm] <tvon> though Im not speaking for him...I think that is what he is arguing for the most part [03:41pm] <tvon> then in the API, we can make it easy to hold the specific mp3/ogg information instead of focusing the db design on it [03:41pm] <tvon> which I think is Hans' point [03:41pm] <tvon> am I right hans? [03:41pm] <Vinz_Yum> 1 wav -> 1 entry in song. no other deps. Correct ? [03:42pm] <tvon> eyah vinz [03:42pm] <tvon> er, yeah [03:42pm] <hmlr> my thinking is, why restrtict it if you dont have to [03:42pm] <tvon> I agree.... [03:42pm] <tvon> so, now we have to convince Felix (mainly) and everyone else :-) [03:42pm] <Vinz_Yum> I just think we should keep it simple. To start. [03:43pm] <tvon> well, in some ways I agree [03:43pm] <Vinz_Yum> some ? :) [03:43pm] <tvon> but when it comes to the schema, I want to get it as final as we can before we move onto the api [03:43pm] <tvon> since changing the schema could affect everything else...in the future [03:43pm] <hmlr> the code working with the tables will not be "generic" [03:43pm] <hmlr> it will focus and understand specific data [03:43pm] <tvon> in theory, one change to the schema could require alot of rewriting in the api [03:44pm] <Vinz_Yum> As long as someone writes a nice document explainig with examples the relations and so on, OK. [03:44pm] <tvon> hmlr, yeah [03:44pm] <hmlr> when adding new features, we get new data handled by new code [03:45pm] <hmlr> we dont want to make lots of structural changes [03:45pm] <tvon> yeah, thats my point [03:45pm] <tvon> I have used apps that rely on a database...and sometimes an upgrade will require a rebuilt database which REALLY sucks [03:45pm] <hmlr> to the model to add what is anticipated do we? :) [03:45pm] <Vinz_Yum> The API should be canonical: very small functions, and a few bigger ones. New table -> functions to manipulate fields. And some functions that link this table to existing ones. [03:46pm] <tvon> yes [03:46pm] <tvon> yes to vinz I mean, hans, what are you saying there? [03:46pm] <tvon> in yoda speak? [03:46pm] <tvon> :-) [03:46pm] <hmlr> to program against values in columns is very much the same as coding against data [03:46pm]*tvon has been wondering what that meant [03:47pm] <Vinz_Yum> When I updated schema in my previous apps, I give "V1toV2.sh" script ;) .Ok, it can be time consuming..... [03:47pm] <tvon> heh [03:48pm] <Vinz_Yum> Sorry guys, gotta go ! [03:48pm] <tvon> so, are we three in agreement on this? [03:48pm] <tvon> vinz? [03:48pm] <tvon> ok vinz, Ill speak to you later [03:48pm] <tvon> thanks for stopping by [03:48pm] <Vinz_Yum> ....on what sorry ???? :) [03:48pm] <tvon> on abstracting out our schema to be filetype-generic? [03:48pm] <Vinz_Yum> I'm on the phone. Back in few minits [03:49pm] <hmlr> u ask me ge lecture? [03:49pm] <hmlr> :-) [03:49pm] <hmlr> The program you write handles (understands) the values i a column, [03:49pm] <hmlr> well, you write a program using a column it requires the column to be there, right [03:49pm] <hmlr> well again... [03:49pm] <tvon> columnt = field? [03:49pm] <tvon> like...."id" [03:50pm] <tvon> or "name" [03:50pm] <tvon> (just trying to make it crystal clear) [03:51pm] <hmlr> if you code against an occurence you require it to be there, [03:51pm] <tvon> occourence meaning.... [03:51pm] <hmlr> a row in a table [03:51pm] <tvon> ah, ok [03:51pm] <hmlr> with an id [03:51pm] <tvon> I gotcha now [03:52pm] <hmlr> so, the difference is the the occurence (id) you can insert and [03:52pm] <hmlr> create/validate the structures... [03:52pm] <hmlr> Am I making any sens at all? [03:52pm] <tvon> I believe so, yes [03:53pm] <hmlr> The code needs to "understand" the values in both cases. [03:54pm] <hmlr> To me, it is more simple to work with and grow with more rows... [03:54pm] <tvon> yes, now I know what your saying [03:54pm] <hmlr> then adding more columns [03:54pm] <tvon> ok, now I really know what your saying :-) [03:54pm] <tvon> it makese sense to me to do it that way [03:55pm] <hmlr> the amount of code is about the same [03:55pm] <hmlr> and the specialization(?) is the same [03:55pm] <tvon> my main concern isnt the code really....the API can bend and change without many problems.... [03:55pm] <tvon> we can always add new functions [03:55pm] <tvon> the schema should remain mostly the same through the life of the project though [03:55pm] <tvon> I think [03:56pm] <tvon> so, I agree with you there [03:56pm] <hmlr> if you want others to adopt, they may use the API and create structures of thier own. [03:57pm] <hmlr> sorry have a problem with my key caps ;-) -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from pratchett.openprojects.net [1;30m[[0;36m03:57pm[1;30m] -:- BitchX: Press ^F to see who left to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] [03:57pm] <tvon> heh, np [1;32m.----- Who [1;32m-----[0;32m---[1;32m---[0;32m--[1;32m-----[0;32m--[1;32m-- Channel[0;32m--- Server [1;32m-[0;32m----[1;32m--[0;32m--[1;32m----[0;32m Seconds [1;32m| fkr!fkr@thinktank.mediaf #smdp fontana.openprojects 7 [03:57pm] <tvon> oh, damn [03:57pm] <tvon> stupid net split -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net pratchett.openprojects.net -:- fkr [1;30m[[0;36mfkr@thinktank.mediafarm.ch[1;30m] has joined #smdp [03:58pm] <tvon> alright [03:58pm] <tvon> Hans, I am going to abstract out our schema a little.... [03:58pm] <tvon> from now on, you should use that as your base when submitting new layouts/ideas [03:58pm] <tvon> to keep from confusing people [03:58pm] <tvon> since some have been pretty confused about your totally new layout #smdp fkr [0;36mH fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops) #smdp hmlr [0;36mH hal[1;31m@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com (Hans Lohmander) #smdp Vinz_Yum [0;36mH Vinz_gr[1;31m@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr (KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith' by Szymon Stefanek) #smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon) [03:59pm] <hmlr> sorry about the confusion, not intended... [03:59pm] <tvon> I know [03:59pm] <tvon> dont worry about it :-) [04:00pm] <tvon> Ill make some changes and send you a link to the png on the web [04:00pm] <tvon> oh, btw, [04:00pm] <tvon> what app have you been using to layout your schema? [04:00pm] <hmlr> ok [04:00pm] <hmlr> just some image program [04:00pm] <tvon> ah [04:01pm] <tvon> Dia has a UML mode... [04:01pm] <tvon> which is what we have been using [04:01pm] <tvon> which is what the .dia files are in cvs [04:01pm] <tvon> might want to try it out [04:01pm] <hmlr> Hm, what is Dia? [04:01pm] <tvon> generic diagram maker thingy... [04:02pm] <tvon> hold on.. [04:02pm] <hmlr> OS? [04:02pm] <tvon> ah, linux [04:02pm] <tvon> what do you use? [04:02pm] <tvon> OS [04:02pm] <hmlr> btw its 8 now... #smdp fkr [0;36mH fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops) #smdp hmlr [0;36mH hal[1;31m@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com (Hans Lohmander) #smdp Vinz_Yum [0;36mH Vinz_gr[1;31m@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr (KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith' by Szymon Stefanek) #smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon) [04:02pm] <hmlr> Linux, MacOS (!) [04:02pm] <tvon> ah [04:03pm] <tvon> http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/ [04:03pm] <tvon> Dia homepage [04:03pm] <hmlr> will have a look at it [04:03pm]*tvon sights [04:03pm]*tvon ment to sigh, not sights [04:04pm]*tvon cant spell [04:04pm]*tvon blames spellcheck on Word Perfect for this [04:04pm] <tvon> hmm, now where are all those people I promised? [04:05pm] <tvon> have another guy, Greg, who seems to be about your speed in DB design [04:05pm] <tvon> by the way I mean [04:05pm] <hmlr> for the current GMT time see http://G-M-T.com/ [04:05pm] <tvon> ah [04:06pm] <tvon> date -u [04:06pm] <fkr> re [04:06pm] <tvon> hey felix [04:07pm] <fkr> anyone else still here? [04:07pm] <hmlr> yepp, but not as fancy :) [04:07pm] <tvon> Hans [04:07pm] <tvon> vinz left [04:07pm] <tvon> :-) [04:07pm] <tvon> not smiling that vinz left, smiling to hans [04:07pm]*tvon shrugs [04:07pm] <tvon> so, about the schema [04:08pm] <tvon> fkr, what is your stance....just to clarify [04:08pm] <fkr> gimme three minutes to read the log [04:08pm] <Vinz_Yum> Back ! [04:08pm] <tvon> np [04:08pm] <tvon> heya vinz [04:09pm] <tvon> baywatch is a horrible horrible show [04:09pm] <Vinz_Yum> Girls really like talks ;) [04:09pm] <tvon> and I blame you germans for that [04:09pm] <tvon> :-) [04:09pm] <tvon> crazy hasslehoff fans [04:09pm] <tvon> mm, anyways [04:09pm] <hmlr> baywatch??? [04:10pm] <Vinz_Yum> So, guys. Time to go to bed..... soon [04:10pm] <tvon> nod [04:10pm] <tvon> I think we covered what I wanted to cover... [04:10pm] <tvon> need to talk to other people about it... [04:10pm] <fkr> mmmh [04:11pm] <fkr> well.... [04:11pm] <tvon> yes? [04:11pm] <Vinz_Yum> ADSL glitch one more ! -:- SignOff Vinz_Yum: #smdp [1;30m(KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith'[1;30m) [04:11pm] <fkr> I'm not even starting to work towards the proposal, as long as it's not based on the current one. [04:12pm] <fkr> that's one of my major points of critism. [04:12pm] <tvon> we talked about that [04:12pm] <tvon> I will do what I have in my head to the current schema [04:12pm] <tvon> and will show it to you and hans before I commit it to cvs [04:12pm] <fkr> NO. show it to the list. [04:12pm] <tvon> ok [04:12pm] <tvon> of course :-) [04:12pm] <fkr> smdp-devel@ are the ones that we care about. [04:13pm] <tvon> understood [04:13pm] <tvon> but, point being, Hans will work on the SMDP schema from here on out... [04:13pm] <tvon> so, confusion should be eliminated I think.... [04:14pm] <fkr> [04:14pm] <fkr> what about that? [04:15pm] <tvon> what do I mean? [04:15pm] <fkr> good-for-everything means: include all possible music-format-things out there. [04:15pm] <tvon> well, currently you _could_ hold a large index of wav clips if you really wanted to use the SMDP [04:15pm] <tvon> fkr basically, but not totally [04:15pm] <fkr> exactly. -:- Vinz_gr [1;30m[[0;36mVinz_gr@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr[1;30m] has joined #smdp [04:16pm] <tvon> it is a is a goal I would like to get close to but not exaclty complete [04:16pm] <Vinz_gr> God damn ADSL.... [04:16pm] <tvon> currently, with wav clips, there would be alot of wasted space in the db [04:16pm] <tvon> so, someone would really have to want to use the SMDP to store wav clips...as it would really make more sense for them to design thier own db instead [04:16pm] <Vinz_gr> that much ? [04:17pm] <fkr> well....with being less focused on .mp3 the amount of work in the code raises to a tremendous amount more. [04:17pm] <tvon> if we abstract it a little....I dont think it would be a problem to store wav or midi files [04:17pm] <tvon> I dont think it changes the api much [04:17pm] <tvon> how bout I make the changes (mostly) I am talking about and show it to the list [04:17pm] <tvon> Im not talking about a ton of abstraction really, just in some key areas [04:18pm] <Vinz_gr> Keep in mind data integrity and you'll see the problem....... :((( [04:18pm] <Vinz_gr> cascade updates, cascade delete,...... real fun ! [04:18pm] <Vinz_gr> But we are real coders :) [04:18pm] <fkr> vince, thanks. [04:19pm] <hmlr> How do you mean? [04:19pm] <hmlr> please elaborate [04:19pm] <tvon> nod [04:19pm] <tvon> please :-) [04:20pm] <Vinz_gr> Well, in Mysql, you don't have statement "cascade" like in Oracle. Anyone ? [04:20pm] <hmlr> yes? [04:20pm] <tvon> I dont know what cascading is...but continue [04:20pm] <Vinz_gr> If you delete one song, you will have to delete all the possible relations, all the references, ..... [04:21pm] <tvon> ah [04:21pm] <Vinz_gr> Example: you remove one song -> update all you collections which included that specific song. [04:21pm] <Vinz_gr> You remove one album -> remove all the songs of the album -> for each song remove...... etc etc..... [04:22pm] <tvon> I assume 'cascade' makes this easier? [04:22pm] <fkr> way easier. [04:22pm] <Vinz_gr> It handles all the process :) [04:22pm] <fkr> it's one statement with cascade [04:22pm] <tvon> heh [04:22pm] <tvon> sic [04:22pm] <fkr> it's hell a lot more without. [04:22pm] <tvon> and how is it made worse by abstraction? [04:22pm] <fkr> you need to take care of a whole lot more tables. [04:23pm] <fkr> to be able to assure data-integrity [04:23pm] <Vinz_gr> Abstraction means more relations, more tables, more indirections...... correct ? [04:23pm] <fkr> exactly. [04:23pm] <fkr> that's excatly my point. [04:23pm] <Vinz_gr> MySQL -> no constraints ! Everything must be done by hand ! Tough job ! [04:24pm] <tvon> hows postgre in this area? [04:24pm] <hmlr> Postgres is ok [04:24pm] <tvon> hmm [04:24pm] <hmlr> uses triggers [04:24pm] <Vinz_gr> postgres has constraints -> if you remove a song withou updating the collections -> error message. It ensures you do things cleanly. [04:24pm] <tvon> nod [04:25pm] <Vinz_gr> But won't help you to do things. Just complains [04:25pm] <fkr> well, it doesn't make much difference how postgres is in this are. We need to meet the common denominator [04:25pm] <tvon> nod [04:25pm] <fkr> and that's Mysql. [04:25pm] <tvon> just curious [04:25pm] <Vinz_gr> Just to say that Oracle API : easy. postgresql: medium mysql: tricky ! [04:26pm] <Vinz_gr> almost..... :) [04:26pm] <fkr> exactly. [04:26pm] <tvon> nod [04:26pm] <tvon> so, you think it would be sig more difficult to do this with more abstraction than what we have now? [04:26pm] <Vinz_gr> Just more work...... I'm lazy..... ;) [04:27pm] <tvon> :-) [04:27pm] <fkr> well, laziness is no point. [04:27pm] <Vinz_gr> And tired..... gotta go soon [04:27pm] <tvon> nod [04:27pm] <hmlr> gg, put my kids to bed, bye now [04:27pm] <tvon> cya Hans [04:27pm] <tvon> thanks for coming by -:- SignOff hmlr: #smdp [1;30m(Leaving[1;30m) [04:28pm] <Vinz_gr> I don't mind abstraction. We just have to agree all together [04:28pm] <tvon> of course :-) [04:28pm] <Vinz_gr> See ya guys ! [04:28pm] <tvon> cya vinz [04:28pm] <tvon> thanks for coming -:- SignOff Vinz_gr: #smdp [1;30m(Vinz_gr[1;30m) #smdp fkr [0;36mH fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops) #smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon) [04:29pm] <tvon> hmm...thought Ben and Greg would be here.... [04:29pm] <tvon> ah well [04:29pm] <tvon> So...your still not very keen on the abstraction, eh? [04:30pm] <fkr> it's not the abstraction I worry about. [04:30pm] <tvon> its the work that falls into the api? [04:30pm] <fkr> I worry a *lot* about trying to support the world [04:30pm] <tvon> true [04:31pm] <tvon> hmm [04:31pm] <tvon> well, let me make some of the changes I had in mind....and Ill post it to the list and we can continue disucssion about it there.... [04:31pm] <tvon> otherwise....how was your trip? [04:31pm] <fkr> pretty good... [04:32pm] <tvon> cool [04:32pm] <fkr> after having some more talks to the girl, I gave her my phone-number on sunday and she did'nt contact me yet :( [04:32pm] <fkr> but well...waiting for a few days more, before I give up hope :) [04:32pm] <tvon> bah, Id give her about a week [04:33pm] <tvon> actually, get this....... [04:33pm] <tvon> my roomate/friend Rob met a girl at a halloween party....in...1999 I believe [04:33pm]*tvon scratches his head [04:33pm] <tvon> yeah, 1999 halloween party [04:33pm] <tvon> dressed up as a french maid [04:33pm] <tvon> they talked all night and they exchanged numbers.... [04:34pm] <tvon> they spoke once about a month later.....then they never spoke.. [04:34pm] <fkr> ....until..... [04:34pm] <tvon> BUT...she had a boyfriend she didnt tell him about..... [04:34pm] <tvon> and about 6 months ago she broke up with her BF...and called Rob [04:34pm] <fkr> hehe [04:34pm] <tvon> OVER A YEAR after they exchanged numbers [04:34pm] <fkr> hehe [04:34pm] <fkr> well.... [04:34pm] <tvon> and they have now been dating for about 4 months [04:34pm] <fkr> *that* gives me hope :) [04:34pm] <tvon> heh [04:35pm] <tvon> never give up hope :-) [04:35pm] <fkr> I'm looking forward to the updated schema....maybe I image it way worse that it is :) [04:35pm] <tvon> I think you do :-) [04:35pm] <tvon> not sure though [04:35pm] <tvon> I just think we could make somewhat minor changes and satisfy a wider audience [04:35pm] <tvon> but, well see.. [04:36pm] <fkr> hehe [04:36pm] <tvon> is there anything else you had in mind about the project? [04:37pm] <fkr> ton's of thing...but my mind is really boogled right now (having this fsck'ing doctor appointment tomorrow :/ [04:37pm] <tvon> ah, suck [04:37pm] <tvon> OH DAMN...I have to change a dentist appt for this week :-( [04:37pm] <tvon> got a temp job working with Macs Im starting tomorrow [04:38pm] <tvon> oh god is my brain fried [04:38pm] <fkr> in a week, I'll be moving to Oldenburg, then I might need to be in hospital for the knees...dunno...huge BLOB in my way :) [04:38pm] <tvon> yeah, that sucks ass [04:38pm] <fkr> I saw you stuff for the API in the cvs. [04:39pm] <tvon> ah, very prelim :-) -:- XD [1;30m[[0;36mxavier.deg@AGrenoble-101-1-3-30.abo.wanadoo.fr[1;30m] has joined #smdp [04:39pm] <tvon> not a ton of thought.... [04:39pm] <XD> Hi [04:39pm] <fkr> hi Xav :) [04:39pm] <tvon> I just made a struct for all the tables [04:39pm] <tvon> Hey Xav! [04:39pm] <XD> Sorry I can't pass to discuss with you before. [04:40pm] <fkr> no prob. :) [04:40pm] <fkr> will publish the log-file :) [04:40pm] <XD> Did the discussion was good ;) [04:40pm] <tvon> afk a few ...... [04:41pm] <XD> I have a lot of work those days and I did not have a lot of time to pass to SMDP but I expect than I can spend more time in the future. [04:41pm] <fkr> xav, yes...tom will send a slightly more abstracted DB-schema to smdp-devel@ which will discuss further on the list. [04:41pm] <fkr> xav, vince was here and provided quiet a bit of input :) [04:47pm] <tvon> back [04:47pm] <XD> Ok good. [04:47pm] <tvon> so whats going on? [04:47pm] <tvon> is there anything else to discuss at the moment? [04:48pm]*tvon needs to go get cigs and soda soon [04:48pm] <tvon> :-) [04:48pm] <XD> I think we have the same point of view with vince because we have the same application point of view. [04:48pm] <XD> Still exist problematic point ? [04:48pm] <tvon> you guys have Limpoo right? [04:50pm] <XD> Yes I have a LiMpOo on a dedicated PC at home for more than one year ;) [04:50pm] <tvon> heh, nice [04:50pm] <tvon> I looked at that prior to the SMDP.... [04:50pm] <tvon> want to set it up as a car stereo [04:50pm] <tvon> with a wireless lan :-) [04:53pm] <XD> :) [04:53pm] <XD> I have write a php frontend for LiMpOo and I will put it on sourceforge a day ;) [04:53pm] <tvon> cool [04:56pm] <tvon> btw, I have this thing logged in color [04:56pm] <XD> I will try be with o*you for the next IRC meeting. [04:56pm] <tvon> at least, when you cat the file it comes out in color [04:56pm] <tvon> Ill work on the html [04:56pm] <tvon> cuz the colors are nice in this setup :-) [04:56pm] <tvon> otherwise, I gotta run.....Ill talk to yall later.. [04:57pm] <tvon> look for a post to the list wyhen you wake up :-) [04:57pm] <tvon> bye :-) [05:01pm] <XD> Bye, back to the list [05:01pm] <XD> . -:- SignOff XD: #smdp [1;30m([1;30m) [05:01pm] <fkr> back. [05:03pm] <fkr> anyhow....need to finish a concept for a customer. IRC log ended Mon Jun 18 17:13:45 2001 |