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IRC log started Mon Jun 18 03:38:58 2001
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IRC log ended Mon Jun 18 03:39:15 2001
-:- Starting logfile IrcLog
IRC log started Mon Jun 18 13:25:57 2001
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[01:26pm] <tvon> how are you doing?
[01:26pm] <Vinz_gr> just back from work..... under heavy rain.... and you ?
[01:27pm] <tvon> mmm...woke up a few hours ago...and hungry...and its hot and humid here
[01:27pm] <Vinz_gr> Where are you ?
[01:27pm] <tvon> College Park, Maryland USA
[01:27pm] <tvon> right outside of Washington D.C.
[01:28pm] <tvon> a few miles outside
[01:28pm] <Vinz_gr> I see......well, i'm on the other side of the Atlantic
[01:28pm] <tvon> yeah, France right?
[01:30pm] <Vinz_gr> Correct.... middle of France....600Km from Paris
[01:30pm] <tvon> ah
#smdp Vinz_gr [0;36mH Vinz_gr[1;31m@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr (KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith' by Szymon Stefanek)
#smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon)
#smdp fkr [0;36mG fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops)
[01:31pm] <tvon> listen, I am going to run out to get something to eat....
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[01:32pm] <tvon> I think .......
#smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon)
#smdp fkr [0;36mG fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops)
[01:32pm] <tvon> vinz?
[01:32pm] <tvon> heh
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[01:32pm] <tvon> hey again
[01:32pm] <Vinz_gr> Pfffff..... USB ADSL modem under linux is painful at times.....
[01:33pm] <tvon> heh, lame
[01:33pm] <tvon> but listen, I am goign to run out for a few minutes...
[01:33pm] <Vinz_gr> no problem
[01:33pm] <tvon> I think people should starting showing up in about an hour
[01:33pm] <Vinz_gr> I'l have a quick bite.
[01:33pm] <tvon> so Ill talk to you when I get back...
[01:33pm] <tvon> cool
[01:33pm] <tvon> :-)
[01:33pm] <tvon> cya
-:- BitchX: Now logging messages to: /home/tvon/.BitchX/BitchX.away
[01:33pm]*tvon is away: (Im getting food) [BX-MsgLog On]
-:- We'll miss you
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[01:35pm] <fkr> good evening
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[01:35pm] <fkr> hi vinz.
[01:36pm] <fkr> s/z/ce/
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[01:37pm] <fkr> hi hans
[01:38pm] <hmlr> hi
[01:38pm] <fkr> how's everyone?
[01:38pm] <hmlr> fine, you?
[01:39pm] <fkr> pretty fine.
[01:39pm] <hmlr> the meeting is at 8 GMT, still?
[01:40pm] <fkr> ack.
[01:40pm] <fkr> [19:38:49] fkr@mad ~ $ date
[01:40pm] <fkr> Mon Jun 18 19:38:51 CEST 2001
[01:40pm] <hmlr> same time as me
[01:41pm] <fkr> ack. I'm in germany too ;)
[01:41pm] <hmlr> so two more hours to go...
[01:45pm] <Vinz_gr> hello everyone !
[01:46pm] <hmlr> Hi
[01:47pm] <fkr> vince....nice to see you :)
[01:48pm] <Vinz_gr> Well, same for me ! I had to find a decent IRC client......
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[01:50pm] <fkr> well....epic4 works fine.
[01:50pm]*fkr is still confused with GMT....is this one hour behind german-timezone?
[01:51pm] <Vinz_gr> Kvirc is a bit flashy but quite usable. I wish I had as many problems with my ADSL connection as I have with kvirc :(
[01:52pm] <Vinz_gr> GMT is one hour before europe timezone.....
[01:52pm] <tvon> hey guys
-:- Does this mean you're really back?
[01:52pm] <hmlr> GMT +1 time zone germany, +1 DST
[01:52pm] <fkr> so, basically...we meet in 70 minutes
[01:52pm] <fkr> hehe
[01:52pm] <fkr> hi tom
[01:52pm]*tvon nods
[01:52pm] <tvon> hey Felix
[01:52pm] <hmlr> Hi tom
[01:53pm] <tvon> last night? yeah
#smdp hmlr [0;36mH hal[1;31m@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com (Hans Lohmander)
#smdp Vinz_gr [0;36mH Vinz_gr[1;31m@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr (KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith' by Szymon Stefanek)
#smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon)
#smdp fkr [0;36mH fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops)
[01:53pm] <tvon> hey Hans
[01:57pm] <tvon> I have some things to take care of before the meeting gets under way...
[01:57pm] <tvon> so, Ill be off and on for the next 30 mins or so
[01:57pm] <tvon> (fyi and all)
[01:57pm] <fkr> cu for the meeting I say :)
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[02:37pm]*Vinz_gr is AWAY at 22:37:42 : Yum !
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[02:48pm] <tvon> ello?
IRC log ended Mon Jun 18 14:50:50 2001
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[02:52pm] <tvon> lunch? I thought it was 9pm there?
[02:53pm] <Vinz_Yum> So ? :)
[02:53pm] <tvon> heh, lunch is a noon thing I though
[02:53pm] <tvon> guess things are different all over eh?
[02:54pm] <tvon> s/though/thought
[02:54pm] <Vinz_Yum> Well, diner if you like ;)
[02:54pm] <tvon> ah, ok
[02:54pm] <tvon> :-)
[02:55pm] <tvon> afk a few
[03:01pm] <Vinz_Yum> Here I'm !
[03:03pm]*Vinz_Yum is AWAY at 23:03:41 : eat
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[03:03pm]*Vinz_Yum is back after 0 d 0 h 0 m 3 s
[03:04pm] <Vinz_Yum> So, what is the agenda ?
[03:04pm] <tvon> re
[03:04pm] <tvon> ahh...hmm...the agenda
[03:05pm] <Vinz_Yum> Shouldn't have asked :)
[03:05pm] <tvon> the abstraction of the SMDP schema....
[03:05pm] <tvon> :-)
[03:05pm] <fkr> ok.
[03:05pm] <fkr> I'm here
[03:05pm] <tvon> how to deal with user prefrences.....
[03:05pm] <tvon> and....whatever else people want to talk about
[03:05pm] <tvon> heya Felix
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[03:05pm] <fkr> I will need to drop off in a few minutes for a talk to a customer of mine....but I got some time :)
[03:05pm] <tvon> np
#smdp hmlr [0;36mH hal[1;31m@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com (Hans Lohmander)
#smdp Vinz_Yum [0;36mH Vinz_gr[1;31m@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr (KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith' by Szymon Stefanek)
#smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon)
#smdp fkr [0;36mH fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops)
[03:06pm] <fkr> user preferences?
[03:06pm] <tvon> Hans, you here?
[03:06pm] <fkr> as in what?
[03:06pm] <hmlr> yepp
[03:06pm] <hmlr> hi all
[03:06pm] <tvon> yeah, user specific info on how often a song is skipped or selected for example
[03:06pm] <Vinz_Yum> hi !
[03:06pm] <tvon> or which genre a user preferres
[03:07pm] <tvon> er, you know...that kinda stuff
[1;34m<fkr[1;34m> tvon, that does not belong to the core imho.
[03:07pm] <tvon> I agree
[03:07pm] <fkr> and it can be seen as a whole separate part imho
[03:07pm] <tvon> but think we should have it
[03:07pm] <tvon> nod
[03:08pm] <fkr> yeah, but there is this whole new schema that popped up
[03:08pm] <Vinz_Yum> Hum. General question: are we trying to do everything we can think of in one release, or shall we have a more progressive roadmap ?
[03:08pm] <tvon> ah yes, that
[03:08pm] <fkr> which is a bit of a higher priority that user preferences
[03:08pm] <tvon> nod
[03:08pm] <fkr> vince, imho progressive
[03:08pm] <Vinz_Yum> nod
[03:08pm] <fkr> which is the reason why I would want to skip this user prefrences part.
[03:08pm] <Vinz_Yum> nod
[03:08pm] <tvon> agreed on the roadmap
[03:08pm] <tvon> ok
[03:08pm] <Vinz_Yum> We should try to stick to basic features
[03:09pm] <tvon> about the new schema....
[03:09pm] <Vinz_Yum> I don't feel like coding a 1million line API :)
[03:09pm] <Vinz_Yum> ...for the moment
[03:09pm] <Vinz_Yum> :)
[03:09pm] <tvon> Hans has alot of db design experience and I asked him to do a draft based on a previous discussion we had
[03:09pm] <fkr> vince, definitly nor for the now :)
[03:09pm] <tvon> I prob should not have sent it to the list in retrospect
[03:09pm] <tvon> but, for the record, we are not going to trash our current schema
[03:09pm] <tvon> we might abstract it some more, but we wont start over with a new one
[03:10pm] <fkr> so *what* should be more abstracted on the current schema being in the CVS?
[03:10pm] <tvon> hold on, lemme bring it up on my box
[03:11pm] <tvon> (the thing is bigger than my screen....yeesh)
[03:12pm] <fkr> hans, have you looked through the mailing-list-archieve to see, what exactly we want to do?
[03:12pm] <hmlr> no
[03:12pm] <fkr> ok.
[03:12pm] <hmlr> just the questions to you
[03:12pm] <fkr> then I do understand, why the schema is so different.
[03:12pm] <tvon> ok, abstracting our schema...
[03:13pm] <tvon> in song and file table, there is info that can be generalized...like the bitrate and frequency for example
[03:13pm] <tvon> could be in a seperate, more generic table
[03:13pm] <tvon> and the layer
[03:13pm] <fkr> didn't we say that it is going to be moved to the 'file'-table?
[03:13pm] <tvon> since ogg has no layers
[03:13pm] <tvon> in the file table I mean
[03:14pm] <tvon> sorry
[03:14pm] <tvon> like a properties table with "property, value, id" or something
[03:15pm] <tvon> the amount of abstraction depends on one main thing though
[03:15pm] <tvon> what range of information do we want to allow the SMDP to hold?
[03:15pm] <tvon> just ogg/mp3 files? wav files? midi files? other music related items?
[03:15pm] <fkr> we agreed on the list on .mp3/.ogg
[03:16pm] <tvon> we did?
[03:16pm] <tvon> hmm
[03:16pm] <fkr> midi and wave can both be stored in the same tables, just with lesser information.
[03:16pm] <tvon> I remember brief discussion in the forums early on....
[03:16pm] <fkr> for midi and wave we can always have support later on. with no problem.
[03:16pm] <fkr> with no backwards-compat. problem
#smdp hmlr [0;36mH hal[1;31m@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com (Hans Lohmander)
#smdp Vinz_Yum [0;36mH Vinz_gr[1;31m@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr (KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith' by Szymon Stefanek)
#smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon)
#smdp fkr [0;36mH fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops)
[03:17pm] <hmlr> question: shall it be done so that will only be possible to hold just that?
[03:17pm] <fkr> if we try to store *every* thing on the first run, will be sitting on the schema in a year.
[03:17pm] <fkr> (imho)
[03:17pm] <tvon> heh
[03:17pm] <tvon> you have a point there
[03:17pm] <hmlr> Beg to differ :-)
[03:17pm] <tvon> vinz?
[03:18pm] <fkr> hmlr, what do you mean?
[03:19pm] <Vinz_Yum> I'm having a look at the schema..... I see the basic features I need.... even too much :)
[03:19pm] <fkr> vince, do you have the latest schema?
[03:20pm] <fkr> *argh*
[03:20pm] <hmlr> well, by not restrict to specifics in the table design you develop new methods to hanlde new occurencies and new media
[03:20pm] <tvon> http://www.etria.org/~tvon/core-and-optional-set.png
[03:20pm] <tvon> is the latest png
[03:20pm] <fkr> damn customer calling
[03:20pm] <Vinz_Yum> dunno.... v1.1 ?
[03:20pm] <fkr> go guys, discuss...I'll jump in later or comment on smdp-devel@
[03:20pm] <tvon> aight Felix
[03:21pm] <tvon> hmlr, that is my main point of agreement with you
[03:21pm] <tvon> now, one argument is that we could change the schema if some new format pops up....
[03:21pm] <fkr> *geeez* just wanted to tell me, that he will be calling again in ten minutes *argh*
[03:21pm] <tvon> but that risks making the new schema non-backwards compatable
[03:22pm] <hmlr> Its about coding aginst columns or against occurencies, the coding is the same, but the impact on the change is greater using columns imho
[03:22pm] <fkr> well...than it's our fsck'ing job not to make it incompatible.
[03:22pm] <tvon> fkr, which is what Im trying to do here
[03:22pm] <tvon> Im trying to avoid future hacks
[03:23pm] <fkr> well...software is work-in-progress.
[03:23pm] <fkr> it always is.
[03:23pm] <tvon> ack
[03:23pm] <fkr> that's the way this business works.
[03:23pm] <tvon> but if we can prevent something by making a more generalized design I dont think it would hurt anything
[03:24pm] <tvon> lke our current taginfo table....it looks good to me, it allows for any kind of new tag to be entered into it...
[03:24pm] <fkr> jeah, but the amount of 'generalization' is important
[03:24pm] <Vinz_Yum> Yep, but needs alot of work !!!!
[03:24pm] <tvon> I think the file table should have a fileinfo table that is similar to the taginfo
[1;34m<fkr[1;34m> tvon, ok. that sounds good.
[03:24pm] <tvon> that is the kind of thing Im talkin aobut..
[03:25pm] <tvon> but just od that for the song table and the artist table....
[03:25pm] <tvon> and whatever else...
[03:25pm] <tvon> (I havent looked at them specifically, but the idea is the same)
[03:25pm] <fkr> what for?
[03:26pm] <fkr> I understand it, when it comes to the files and tags.
[03:26pm] <tvon> well, we might want to associate something else with the album other than what it is currently connected to...
[03:26pm] <fkr> what besides artist and song?
[03:26pm] <fkr> and genre
[03:26pm] <tvon> it curently has id, genreid, aritstid, name and track list (which we forgot to remove btw :-)
[03:26pm] <tvon> my point is, I dont know....
[03:26pm] <tvon> but something will come up in the future...
[03:26pm] <tvon> imho
[03:27pm] <hmlr> hey, hey
[03:27pm] <fkr> yeah, but nobody will be using mp3 in three years either anymore.
[03:27pm] <tvon> and allowing people to make up thier own information would help
[03:27pm] <Vinz_Yum> Couldn't the relation help to do almost anything possible ?
[03:27pm] <fkr> vince, it can.
[03:27pm] <tvon> I think so
[03:27pm] <fkr> vince, that's the reason why I tossed this up.
[03:27pm] <fkr> *argh* phone again.
[03:27pm] <tvon> :-)
[03:27pm] <tvon> Hans, you still with us?
[03:28pm] <hmlr> still here
[03:28pm] <tvon> ok, here is a summary of my opinion on this::
[03:29pm] <tvon> hm...
[03:29pm] <tvon> if we abstract the format specific information...
[03:29pm] <tvon> we can still hold all the info we have thought of
[03:29pm] <tvon> and more information if it comes up
[03:29pm] <tvon> without making things incompatable with future upgrades....and
[03:30pm] <tvon> while allowing other formats to be stored without alot of empty feilds in a (for example) db of 10.000 midi tracks
[03:30pm] <tvon> and I dont entirely see why not to do this, other than the (reasonably good) arguemtn that "our brains are already fried, we dont need this right now"
[03:30pm] <tvon> :-)
[03:31pm]*tvon thinks there has been more timezone confusion becuase alot more people told me they would be here :-)
[03:32pm] <Vinz_Yum> If we go more generic we would go for a schema like the one hans proposed.
[03:32pm] <hmlr> GMT is now 19:32
[03:32pm] <tvon> yeah, thats the general idea
[03:32pm] <tvon> 19"32?
[03:32pm] <tvon> hmm
[03:32pm] <tvon> I said 8 right?
[03:32pm] <tvon> damn
[03:33pm] <tvon> thought it was 8:32 gmt right now
[03:33pm] <Vinz_Yum> For me, this would need deep explanations, as I'm not a DBA. I understand quickly but I need to be explained a long time :(
[03:33pm] <tvon> so peeps should be here in 30 mins...
[03:33pm] <tvon> IMHO, if we abstract out our current schema a little, we will get something close to what hans has...
[03:33pm] <hmlr> will be away for 2 min...
[03:33pm] <Vinz_Yum> Be leaving in .... 10 mins. Xav not here (apologies)
[03:33pm] <tvon> nod
[03:35pm] <hmlr> back again
[03:35pm] <tvon> nod
[03:35pm] <hmlr> The time confusion comes from DST i think
[03:36pm] <tvon> dst?
[03:36pm] <tvon> oh, yeah
[03:36pm] <tvon> I hate that crap
[03:36pm] <hmlr> Daylight Saving Time
[03:36pm] <tvon> :-)
[03:36pm] <tvon> there is none in europe is there?
[03:36pm]*tvon shrugs
[03:37pm] <hmlr> yes we have
[03:37pm] <hmlr> so +1 +1 = 2! ;-)
[03:37pm] <tvon> Ill never understand it all
[03:37pm] <Vinz_Yum> IMHO, if you remove some unneccesary fields ( year,enhanced,)from the song table and put them somewhere else, you have something quite generic. You link records from other table and that's it !
[03:37pm] <tvon> vinz, yes, that is what I am thinking
[03:37pm] <Vinz_Yum> I'm in Europe too !
[03:38pm] <tvon> Im the only Yank here right now
[03:38pm] <Vinz_Yum> To evolve, just add tables and here you are !
[03:38pm] <tvon> that would be a benifit, yes
[03:39pm] <Vinz_Yum> We should focus on MP3, then add ogg info, then xyz info,......
[03:39pm] <tvon> yeah, I agree
[03:39pm] <tvon> well, I think of it this way
[03:39pm] <Vinz_Yum> That's release 1,2,3,......
[03:39pm] <tvon> well...hmm
[03:39pm] <tvon> heh
[03:40pm] <Vinz_Yum> hum...almost :)
[03:40pm] <tvon> I would like it if the SMDP was viewed as a good-for-everything music database system...
[03:40pm] <hmlr> aggree, regarding the code, but not the datamodel
[03:40pm] <tvon> so, for example, 30,000 wav clips from movies could be held without a ton of empty fields in the db
[03:40pm] <Vinz_Yum> fine.
[03:41pm] <tvon> Felix I think wants to keep things mp3/ogg focused
[03:41pm] <tvon> though Im not speaking for him...I think that is what he is arguing for the most part
[03:41pm] <tvon> then in the API, we can make it easy to hold the specific mp3/ogg information instead of focusing the db design on it
[03:41pm] <tvon> which I think is Hans' point
[03:41pm] <tvon> am I right hans?
[03:41pm] <Vinz_Yum> 1 wav -> 1 entry in song. no other deps. Correct ?
[03:42pm] <tvon> eyah vinz
[03:42pm] <tvon> er, yeah
[03:42pm] <hmlr> my thinking is, why restrtict it if you dont have to
[03:42pm] <tvon> I agree....
[03:42pm] <tvon> so, now we have to convince Felix (mainly) and everyone else :-)
[03:42pm] <Vinz_Yum> I just think we should keep it simple. To start.
[03:43pm] <tvon> well, in some ways I agree
[03:43pm] <Vinz_Yum> some ? :)
[03:43pm] <tvon> but when it comes to the schema, I want to get it as final as we can before we move onto the api
[03:43pm] <tvon> since changing the schema could affect everything else...in the future
[03:43pm] <hmlr> the code working with the tables will not be "generic"
[03:43pm] <hmlr> it will focus and understand specific data
[03:43pm] <tvon> in theory, one change to the schema could require alot of rewriting in the api
[03:44pm] <Vinz_Yum> As long as someone writes a nice document explainig with examples the relations and so on, OK.
[03:44pm] <tvon> hmlr, yeah
[03:44pm] <hmlr> when adding new features, we get new data handled by new code
[03:45pm] <hmlr> we dont want to make lots of structural changes
[03:45pm] <tvon> yeah, thats my point
[03:45pm] <tvon> I have used apps that rely on a database...and sometimes an upgrade will require a rebuilt database which REALLY sucks
[03:45pm] <hmlr> to the model to add what is anticipated do we? :)
[03:45pm] <Vinz_Yum> The API should be canonical: very small functions, and a few bigger ones. New table -> functions to manipulate fields. And some functions that link this table to existing ones.
[03:46pm] <tvon> yes
[03:46pm] <tvon> yes to vinz I mean, hans, what are you saying there?
[03:46pm] <tvon> in yoda speak?
[03:46pm] <tvon> :-)
[03:46pm] <hmlr> to program against values in columns is very much the same as coding against data
[03:46pm]*tvon has been wondering what that meant
[03:47pm] <Vinz_Yum> When I updated schema in my previous apps, I give "V1toV2.sh" script ;) .Ok, it can be time consuming.....
[03:47pm] <tvon> heh
[03:48pm] <Vinz_Yum> Sorry guys, gotta go !
[03:48pm] <tvon> so, are we three in agreement on this?
[03:48pm] <tvon> vinz?
[03:48pm] <tvon> ok vinz, Ill speak to you later
[03:48pm] <tvon> thanks for stopping by
[03:48pm] <Vinz_Yum> ....on what sorry ???? :)
[03:48pm] <tvon> on abstracting out our schema to be filetype-generic?
[03:48pm] <Vinz_Yum> I'm on the phone. Back in few minits
[03:49pm] <hmlr> u ask me ge lecture?
[03:49pm] <hmlr> :-)
[03:49pm] <hmlr> The program you write handles (understands) the values i a column,
[03:49pm] <hmlr> well, you write a program using a column it requires the column to be there, right
[03:49pm] <hmlr> well again...
[03:49pm] <tvon> columnt = field?
[03:49pm] <tvon> like...."id"
[03:50pm] <tvon> or "name"
[03:50pm] <tvon> (just trying to make it crystal clear)
[03:51pm] <hmlr> if you code against an occurence you require it to be there,
[03:51pm] <tvon> occourence meaning....
[03:51pm] <hmlr> a row in a table
[03:51pm] <tvon> ah, ok
[03:51pm] <hmlr> with an id
[03:51pm] <tvon> I gotcha now
[03:52pm] <hmlr> so, the difference is the the occurence (id) you can insert and
[03:52pm] <hmlr> create/validate the structures...
[03:52pm] <hmlr> Am I making any sens at all?
[03:52pm] <tvon> I believe so, yes
[03:53pm] <hmlr> The code needs to "understand" the values in both cases.
[03:54pm] <hmlr> To me, it is more simple to work with and grow with more rows...
[03:54pm] <tvon> yes, now I know what your saying
[03:54pm] <hmlr> then adding more columns
[03:54pm] <tvon> ok, now I really know what your saying :-)
[03:54pm] <tvon> it makese sense to me to do it that way
[03:55pm] <hmlr> the amount of code is about the same
[03:55pm] <hmlr> and the specialization(?) is the same
[03:55pm] <tvon> my main concern isnt the code really....the API can bend and change without many problems....
[03:55pm] <tvon> we can always add new functions
[03:55pm] <tvon> the schema should remain mostly the same through the life of the project though
[03:55pm] <tvon> I think
[03:56pm] <tvon> so, I agree with you there
[03:56pm] <hmlr> if you want others to adopt, they may use the API and create structures of thier own.
[03:57pm] <hmlr> sorry have a problem with my key caps ;-)
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[03:57pm] <tvon> heh, np
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[1;32m| fkr!fkr@thinktank.mediaf #smdp fontana.openprojects 7
[03:57pm] <tvon> oh, damn
[03:57pm] <tvon> stupid net split
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[03:58pm] <tvon> alright
[03:58pm] <tvon> Hans, I am going to abstract out our schema a little....
[03:58pm] <tvon> from now on, you should use that as your base when submitting new layouts/ideas
[03:58pm] <tvon> to keep from confusing people
[03:58pm] <tvon> since some have been pretty confused about your totally new layout
#smdp fkr [0;36mH fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops)
#smdp hmlr [0;36mH hal[1;31m@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com (Hans Lohmander)
#smdp Vinz_Yum [0;36mH Vinz_gr[1;31m@AGrenoble-101-1-1-203.abo.wanadoo.fr (KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith' by Szymon Stefanek)
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[03:59pm] <hmlr> sorry about the confusion, not intended...
[03:59pm] <tvon> I know
[03:59pm] <tvon> dont worry about it :-)
[04:00pm] <tvon> Ill make some changes and send you a link to the png on the web
[04:00pm] <tvon> oh, btw,
[04:00pm] <tvon> what app have you been using to layout your schema?
[04:00pm] <hmlr> ok
[04:00pm] <hmlr> just some image program
[04:00pm] <tvon> ah
[04:01pm] <tvon> Dia has a UML mode...
[04:01pm] <tvon> which is what we have been using
[04:01pm] <tvon> which is what the .dia files are in cvs
[04:01pm] <tvon> might want to try it out
[04:01pm] <hmlr> Hm, what is Dia?
[04:01pm] <tvon> generic diagram maker thingy...
[04:02pm] <tvon> hold on..
[04:02pm] <hmlr> OS?
[04:02pm] <tvon> ah, linux
[04:02pm] <tvon> what do you use?
[04:02pm] <tvon> OS
[04:02pm] <hmlr> btw its 8 now...
#smdp fkr [0;36mH fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops)
#smdp hmlr [0;36mH hal[1;31m@h12n1fls32o985.telia.com (Hans Lohmander)
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#smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon)
[04:02pm] <hmlr> Linux, MacOS (!)
[04:02pm] <tvon> ah
[04:03pm] <tvon> http://www.lysator.liu.se/~alla/dia/
[04:03pm] <tvon> Dia homepage
[04:03pm] <hmlr> will have a look at it
[04:03pm]*tvon sights
[04:03pm]*tvon ment to sigh, not sights
[04:04pm]*tvon cant spell
[04:04pm]*tvon blames spellcheck on Word Perfect for this
[04:04pm] <tvon> hmm, now where are all those people I promised?
[04:05pm] <tvon> have another guy, Greg, who seems to be about your speed in DB design
[04:05pm] <tvon> by the way I mean
[04:05pm] <hmlr> for the current GMT time see http://G-M-T.com/
[04:05pm] <tvon> ah
[04:06pm] <tvon> date -u
[04:06pm] <fkr> re
[04:06pm] <tvon> hey felix
[04:07pm] <fkr> anyone else still here?
[04:07pm] <hmlr> yepp, but not as fancy :)
[04:07pm] <tvon> Hans
[04:07pm] <tvon> vinz left
[04:07pm] <tvon> :-)
[04:07pm] <tvon> not smiling that vinz left, smiling to hans
[04:07pm]*tvon shrugs
[04:07pm] <tvon> so, about the schema
[04:08pm] <tvon> fkr, what is your stance....just to clarify
[04:08pm] <fkr> gimme three minutes to read the log
[04:08pm] <Vinz_Yum> Back !
[04:08pm] <tvon> np
[04:08pm] <tvon> heya vinz
[04:09pm] <tvon> baywatch is a horrible horrible show
[04:09pm] <Vinz_Yum> Girls really like talks ;)
[04:09pm] <tvon> and I blame you germans for that
[04:09pm] <tvon> :-)
[04:09pm] <tvon> crazy hasslehoff fans
[04:09pm] <tvon> mm, anyways
[04:09pm] <hmlr> baywatch???
[04:10pm] <Vinz_Yum> So, guys. Time to go to bed..... soon
[04:10pm] <tvon> nod
[04:10pm] <tvon> I think we covered what I wanted to cover...
[04:10pm] <tvon> need to talk to other people about it...
[04:10pm] <fkr> mmmh
[04:11pm] <fkr> well....
[04:11pm] <tvon> yes?
[04:11pm] <Vinz_Yum> ADSL glitch one more !
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[04:11pm] <fkr> I'm not even starting to work towards the proposal, as long as it's not based on the current one.
[04:12pm] <fkr> that's one of my major points of critism.
[04:12pm] <tvon> we talked about that
[04:12pm] <tvon> I will do what I have in my head to the current schema
[04:12pm] <tvon> and will show it to you and hans before I commit it to cvs
[04:12pm] <fkr> NO. show it to the list.
[04:12pm] <tvon> ok
[04:12pm] <tvon> of course :-)
[04:12pm] <fkr> smdp-devel@ are the ones that we care about.
[04:13pm] <tvon> understood
[04:13pm] <tvon> but, point being, Hans will work on the SMDP schema from here on out...
[04:13pm] <tvon> so, confusion should be eliminated I think....
[04:14pm] <fkr> I would like it if the SMDP was viewed as a good-for-everything music database system...
[04:14pm] <fkr> what about that?
[04:15pm] <tvon> what do I mean?
[04:15pm] <fkr> good-for-everything means: include all possible music-format-things out there.
[04:15pm] <tvon> well, currently you _could_ hold a large index of wav clips if you really wanted to use the SMDP
[04:15pm] <tvon> fkr basically, but not totally
[04:15pm] <fkr> exactly.
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[04:16pm] <tvon> it is a is a goal I would like to get close to but not exaclty complete
[04:16pm] <Vinz_gr> God damn ADSL....
[04:16pm] <tvon> currently, with wav clips, there would be alot of wasted space in the db
[04:16pm] <tvon> so, someone would really have to want to use the SMDP to store wav clips...as it would really make more sense for them to design thier own db instead
[04:16pm] <Vinz_gr> that much ?
[04:17pm] <fkr> well....with being less focused on .mp3 the amount of work in the code raises to a tremendous amount more.
[04:17pm] <tvon> if we abstract it a little....I dont think it would be a problem to store wav or midi files
[04:17pm] <tvon> I dont think it changes the api much
[04:17pm] <tvon> how bout I make the changes (mostly) I am talking about and show it to the list
[04:17pm] <tvon> Im not talking about a ton of abstraction really, just in some key areas
[04:18pm] <Vinz_gr> Keep in mind data integrity and you'll see the problem....... :(((
[04:18pm] <Vinz_gr> cascade updates, cascade delete,...... real fun !
[04:18pm] <Vinz_gr> But we are real coders :)
[04:18pm] <fkr> vince, thanks.
[04:19pm] <hmlr> How do you mean?
[04:19pm] <hmlr> please elaborate
[04:19pm] <tvon> nod
[04:19pm] <tvon> please :-)
[04:20pm] <Vinz_gr> Well, in Mysql, you don't have statement "cascade" like in Oracle. Anyone ?
[04:20pm] <hmlr> yes?
[04:20pm] <tvon> I dont know what cascading is...but continue
[04:20pm] <Vinz_gr> If you delete one song, you will have to delete all the possible relations, all the references, .....
[04:21pm] <tvon> ah
[04:21pm] <Vinz_gr> Example: you remove one song -> update all you collections which included that specific song.
[04:21pm] <Vinz_gr> You remove one album -> remove all the songs of the album -> for each song remove...... etc etc.....
[04:22pm] <tvon> I assume 'cascade' makes this easier?
[04:22pm] <fkr> way easier.
[04:22pm] <Vinz_gr> It handles all the process :)
[04:22pm] <fkr> it's one statement with cascade
[04:22pm] <tvon> heh
[04:22pm] <tvon> sic
[04:22pm] <fkr> it's hell a lot more without.
[04:22pm] <tvon> and how is it made worse by abstraction?
[04:22pm] <fkr> you need to take care of a whole lot more tables.
[04:23pm] <fkr> to be able to assure data-integrity
[04:23pm] <Vinz_gr> Abstraction means more relations, more tables, more indirections...... correct ?
[04:23pm] <fkr> exactly.
[04:23pm] <fkr> that's excatly my point.
[04:23pm] <Vinz_gr> MySQL -> no constraints ! Everything must be done by hand ! Tough job !
[04:24pm] <tvon> hows postgre in this area?
[04:24pm] <hmlr> Postgres is ok
[04:24pm] <tvon> hmm
[04:24pm] <hmlr> uses triggers
[04:24pm] <Vinz_gr> postgres has constraints -> if you remove a song withou updating the collections -> error message. It ensures you do things cleanly.
[04:24pm] <tvon> nod
[04:25pm] <Vinz_gr> But won't help you to do things. Just complains
[04:25pm] <fkr> well, it doesn't make much difference how postgres is in this are. We need to meet the common denominator
[04:25pm] <tvon> nod
[04:25pm] <fkr> and that's Mysql.
[04:25pm] <tvon> just curious
[04:25pm] <Vinz_gr> Just to say that Oracle API : easy. postgresql: medium mysql: tricky !
[04:26pm] <Vinz_gr> almost..... :)
[04:26pm] <fkr> exactly.
[04:26pm] <tvon> nod
[04:26pm] <tvon> so, you think it would be sig more difficult to do this with more abstraction than what we have now?
[04:26pm] <Vinz_gr> Just more work...... I'm lazy..... ;)
[04:27pm] <tvon> :-)
[04:27pm] <fkr> well, laziness is no point.
[04:27pm] <Vinz_gr> And tired..... gotta go soon
[04:27pm] <tvon> nod
[04:27pm] <hmlr> gg, put my kids to bed, bye now
[04:27pm] <tvon> cya Hans
[04:27pm] <tvon> thanks for coming by
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[04:28pm] <Vinz_gr> I don't mind abstraction. We just have to agree all together
[04:28pm] <tvon> of course :-)
[04:28pm] <Vinz_gr> See ya guys !
[04:28pm] <tvon> cya vinz
[04:28pm] <tvon> thanks for coming
-:- SignOff Vinz_gr: #smdp [1;30m(Vinz_gr[1;30m)
#smdp fkr [0;36mH fkr[1;31m@thinktank.mediafarm.ch (whooops)
#smdp tvon [0;36mH tvon[1;31m@dsl254-088-154.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net (Mr. tvon)
[04:29pm] <tvon> hmm...thought Ben and Greg would be here....
[04:29pm] <tvon> ah well
[04:29pm] <tvon> So...your still not very keen on the abstraction, eh?
[04:30pm] <fkr> it's not the abstraction I worry about.
[04:30pm] <tvon> its the work that falls into the api?
[04:30pm] <fkr> I worry a *lot* about trying to support the world
[04:30pm] <tvon> true
[04:31pm] <tvon> hmm
[04:31pm] <tvon> well, let me make some of the changes I had in mind....and Ill post it to the list and we can continue disucssion about it there....
[04:31pm] <tvon> otherwise....how was your trip?
[04:31pm] <fkr> pretty good...
[04:32pm] <tvon> cool
[04:32pm] <fkr> after having some more talks to the girl, I gave her my phone-number on sunday and she did'nt contact me yet :(
[04:32pm] <fkr> but well...waiting for a few days more, before I give up hope :)
[04:32pm] <tvon> bah, Id give her about a week
[04:33pm] <tvon> actually, get this.......
[04:33pm] <tvon> my roomate/friend Rob met a girl at a halloween party....in...1999 I believe
[04:33pm]*tvon scratches his head
[04:33pm] <tvon> yeah, 1999 halloween party
[04:33pm] <tvon> dressed up as a french maid
[04:33pm] <tvon> they talked all night and they exchanged numbers....
[04:34pm] <tvon> they spoke once about a month later.....then they never spoke..
[04:34pm] <fkr> ....until.....
[04:34pm] <tvon> BUT...she had a boyfriend she didnt tell him about.....
[04:34pm] <tvon> and about 6 months ago she broke up with her BF...and called Rob
[04:34pm] <fkr> hehe
[04:34pm] <tvon> OVER A YEAR after they exchanged numbers
[04:34pm] <fkr> hehe
[04:34pm] <fkr> well....
[04:34pm] <tvon> and they have now been dating for about 4 months
[04:34pm] <fkr> *that* gives me hope :)
[04:34pm] <tvon> heh
[04:35pm] <tvon> never give up hope :-)
[04:35pm] <fkr> I'm looking forward to the updated schema....maybe I image it way worse that it is :)
[04:35pm] <tvon> I think you do :-)
[04:35pm] <tvon> not sure though
[04:35pm] <tvon> I just think we could make somewhat minor changes and satisfy a wider audience
[04:35pm] <tvon> but, well see..
[04:36pm] <fkr> hehe
[04:36pm] <tvon> is there anything else you had in mind about the project?
[04:37pm] <fkr> ton's of thing...but my mind is really boogled right now (having this fsck'ing doctor appointment tomorrow :/
[04:37pm] <tvon> ah, suck
[04:37pm] <tvon> OH DAMN...I have to change a dentist appt for this week :-(
[04:37pm] <tvon> got a temp job working with Macs Im starting tomorrow
[04:38pm] <tvon> oh god is my brain fried
[04:38pm] <fkr> in a week, I'll be moving to Oldenburg, then I might need to be in hospital for the knees...dunno...huge BLOB in my way :)
[04:38pm] <tvon> yeah, that sucks ass
[04:38pm] <fkr> I saw you stuff for the API in the cvs.
[04:39pm] <tvon> ah, very prelim :-)
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[04:39pm] <tvon> not a ton of thought....
[04:39pm] <XD> Hi
[04:39pm] <fkr> hi Xav :)
[04:39pm] <tvon> I just made a struct for all the tables
[04:39pm] <tvon> Hey Xav!
[04:39pm] <XD> Sorry I can't pass to discuss with you before.
[04:40pm] <fkr> no prob. :)
[04:40pm] <fkr> will publish the log-file :)
[04:40pm] <XD> Did the discussion was good ;)
[04:40pm] <tvon> afk a few ......
[04:41pm] <XD> I have a lot of work those days and I did not have a lot of time to pass to SMDP but I expect than I can spend more time in the future.
[04:41pm] <fkr> xav, yes...tom will send a slightly more abstracted DB-schema to smdp-devel@ which will discuss further on the list.
[04:41pm] <fkr> xav, vince was here and provided quiet a bit of input :)
[04:47pm] <tvon> back
[04:47pm] <XD> Ok good.
[04:47pm] <tvon> so whats going on?
[04:47pm] <tvon> is there anything else to discuss at the moment?
[04:48pm]*tvon needs to go get cigs and soda soon
[04:48pm] <tvon> :-)
[04:48pm] <XD> I think we have the same point of view with vince because we have the same application point of view.
[04:48pm] <XD> Still exist problematic point ?
[04:48pm] <tvon> you guys have Limpoo right?
[04:50pm] <XD> Yes I have a LiMpOo on a dedicated PC at home for more than one year ;)
[04:50pm] <tvon> heh, nice
[04:50pm] <tvon> I looked at that prior to the SMDP....
[04:50pm] <tvon> want to set it up as a car stereo
[04:50pm] <tvon> with a wireless lan :-)
[04:53pm] <XD> :)
[04:53pm] <XD> I have write a php frontend for LiMpOo and I will put it on sourceforge a day ;)
[04:53pm] <tvon> cool
[04:56pm] <tvon> btw, I have this thing logged in color
[04:56pm] <XD> I will try be with o*you for the next IRC meeting.
[04:56pm] <tvon> at least, when you cat the file it comes out in color
[04:56pm] <tvon> Ill work on the html
[04:56pm] <tvon> cuz the colors are nice in this setup :-)
[04:56pm] <tvon> otherwise, I gotta run.....Ill talk to yall later..
[04:57pm] <tvon> look for a post to the list wyhen you wake up :-)
[04:57pm] <tvon> bye :-)
[05:01pm] <XD> Bye, back to the list
[05:01pm] <XD> .
-:- SignOff XD: #smdp [1;30m([1;30m)
[05:01pm] <fkr> back.
[05:03pm] <fkr> anyhow....need to finish a concept for a customer.
IRC log ended Mon Jun 18 17:13:45 2001